are bad references stored in a database?

A reader writes:

When I recently applied for a job, I gave my former boss' name on an employment form as supervisor. I was under the impression they would check only my personal references and limit discussions with my former company to dates, salary, job role.

However I am under the impression my former boss gave me a bad reference. I plan not to list him next time, but I wonder if it stays in a database for these 3rd party reference checkers. If my next target employer uses this same 3rd party, I am worried they may say what happen with the last potential employer. Can I assume they start fresh on each background check?

I know there is always a risk they can locate my old boss, but I am more concerned about the database piece.

There are weird assumptions in this letter.

First, good reference-checkers will not limit themselves to just the formal list of references you provide. They will call former managers, listed or not -- and sometimes especially those not listed, since they know the omission may have been intentional and thus notable. (After all, the list you hand over is of course the people likely to present you in the best light, and they want to see you in brighter lighting.) And they won't confine their questions to dates of employment; they'll ask what you were like as an employee.

The only thing typically considered off-limits in reference-checking is your current employer, so assume everything else is all fair game.

As for some sort of universal database for reference-checkers, I know of none. Good reference checkers want to ask their own questions and hear the answers first-hand so they can judge tone, inflections, and so forth. That said, I suppose that if a company uses a third-party reference-checking firm, and then you later apply to another company that uses that same firm, you might be already in their database. I don't use third-party reference checkers, so it's outside my knowledge range. But it's probably irrelevant for the reason above.

If you have a potentially bad reference in your past, here's a previous post on how to handle it. Good luck.

interviewer wants reference from current employer

A reader writes:

I am in the midst of applying for a new job. I have interviewed three times with a prospective employer and have been told that I am one of the final candidates for the position.

The HR rep contacted me and asked if they can contact my current manager/supervisor for a reference. I explained that I would prefer they not contact my manager, since it may jeopardize my standing with my current employer. They keep insisting that they speak with my current manager, but I am afraid that if they do, my current employer may let me go in layoffs or attempt to force me out of the job somehow (i.e., re-assign, transfer, etc).

Am I obligated to provide the reference to the prospective employer? I feel that their insistence is unprofessional and inappropriate. What if they contact my employer and end up not offering me the job? Or what if I don't accept the job offer? What is the best way to handle this without losing either job?

You certainly aren't obligated to provide your current employer as a reference. However, if the company you're interviewing with is insisting on it, be aware that refusing may take you out of consideration as a result.

However, this is pretty unusual. Most companies understand why candidates don't want their current employer contacted, and it's odd that this one is insisting. Usually, the current employer is either skipped or is contacted only after they've decided to make an offer -- which they make contingent on a good reference from your current employer.

In the rare instance where a company absolutely insists on contacting your current boss before making an offer, these are your options:

1. Take the risk and allow it. Warn your boss ahead of time. Some people in this situation tell their boss they're applying for a part-time or volunteer position, although I think that's risky.

2. If you've had a previous boss at your current job who has now moved on, ask the company if they'd contact her instead.

3. Hold firm with this company. Tell them you are not able to jeopardize your current employment without a firm offer in hand from them, but that you'd be happy to supply many other references and to allow them to contact your current company once you have an offer (which can be contingent on that reference check, assuming you know the reference will be fine). You might even throw in a mention that it's highly unusual for a company to insist on contacting a candidate's current employer at this stage; maybe you're dealing with someone clueless. You can also throw in, "In this economy, it's not a risk I can take." If they don't understand that, consider that a pretty substantial red flag about this new company.

Personally, I'd do #3. What do others think?

references when a company goes under

A reader writes:

Since my last employer is going out of business (Circuit City), how would I list the information on my resume? I want to list it because it was valuable experience for the field I want to go into.

And even if I list the information, how will employers verify my employment there? And if they can't, does that have a negative outlook on my resume?

You should absolutely list your employment there; the fact that they may no longer be in business doesn't impact that. As for how employers can verify it, I strongly recommend keeping in touch with your manager there, and all your managers from former jobs, so that you have their contact information even when they move on to other companies. That's a good idea regardless, because many prospective employers will want to speak to references who actually managed you, rather than someone in HR who can only confirm dates of employment and so forth.

Is it too late to track down your manager? If he or she is no longer there, I recommend contacting Circuit City's HR (they're still around, at least so far) and asking for their help.

job-searching after being let go

A reader writes:

August 29, 2008 - After working for this IT services company for 2.5 years, I was taken into the boss's office and told that the money was bad and business was scarce. My boss cut me from 40 hours per week down to 20 hours per week to save the company money. He stated that he didn't want to get so bad that he had to shut the doors of the business.

September 24, 2008 - Heard from the accounting/office manager of the business that the company is not doing any better and that the boss had to use funds from his personal account to cover the business taxes.

September 25, 2008 - My boss took me into his office and stated that I made a typographical error and that he was going to let me go.

I felt that he let me go due to the business lacking in funds to cover me on the payroll; however had to come up with a lame excuse to fire me. Please understand my former boss has no people skills and likes to bark commands instead of talk to you like you are a human. In the 9 years that the business was open, my position was the one with the highest turnover. In the 9 years of operation I was number 34 to sit in that seat.

How should I address this on my application and in interviews so that I don't have a hard time finding a job in the future?

I'm not sure that you were fired. As you point out, it sounds like a layoff (which are financially based). You can find out for sure this way: Did the company rehire for your position, or are they leaving it vacant? If the position no longer exists, your position was eliminated, which is often the definition of a layoff.

Now, is it possible that your boss genuinely fired you for cause and then later decided not to refill the position for financial reasons? Sure, absolutely. But given the context that you've laid out here, I'd be skeptical.

If future employers ask why you left, I'd simply explain that the business was in extreme financial trouble, your hours were cut in half, and the boss was using his personal money to pay business taxes. Given the economy right now, most people's brains are going to fill in the rest on their own and move on to the next question. However, some interviewers may specifically ask, "Were you laid off or did you leave voluntarily?" so I'd find some wording that implies you were laid off without outright lying about what your boss said.

Of course, the best thing you could do would be to get the company to agree to consider your departure a layoff (if indeed they didn't refill the position). Assuming they've eliminated the position, you can call your old boss and ask if he'd be willing to call your departure a layoff rather than a firing for future reference calls. It's at least worth a shot -- the worst that can happen is that he'll say no. If there's an HR department, start with them; they may be able to advocate for you with your boss. And actually, even if the company did refill your position and it wasn't a layoff, you should still try this approach; see this post for more details on how to do it. Good luck!

when you can't give a positive reference

Have you ever been asked to be a reference for an employee you can't honestly recommend? Over at U.S. News & World Report today, I give some suggestions on how to handle reference requests when you can't recommend the candidate. Check it out here.

can I make the company give me THEIR references?

Yep, a Black Friday extravaganza: three posts in one day.

A reader writes:

After the second interview, when an interview requests my references, is it ever possible to turn around and also ask the interviewer for references from the prospective company? I would only do this if (1) I am really sure that I want the position, but I've heard things about the company about turnover/chronic underperformers/bad juju and (2) if I felt comfortable enough with the interviewer to do so.

Would this move be perceived as obnoxious?

I'm envisioning it as a bit of a 360 degree interview, because if I am going to leave my current job for one that seems more stellar, I feel that I have the right to also investigate what I'm leaving for -- the real picture, not the one that's given in interviews. Your opinion?

(For the record, I haven't yet done this, but came close many times. I also wish in some jobs that I had insisted.)

Yes, you can do this, and it does happen occasionally, so the company shouldn't think it's crazy. (Although frankly, even if you were the first person in the history of the world to ask it, they still shouldn't think it's crazy because it's a smart thing to do, but many, many people -- less intelligent ones -- think things they haven't encountered before are crazy.)

However, because it's not a common request, be careful about the way you ask for it.

Give context and frame it in a positive light, not a precautionary measure that you're taking after being burned previously. For instance, explain that you are looking for a position where the fit is really right because you want to stay for a long time, and ask if you can talk to others who work in the department, or even the previous people who held the job.

This is a reasonable request, and if the company is resistant to it, that's a huge red flag -- either because they're hiding something or because they have a culture problem that makes them think reference-checking should be a one-way street, which is possibly indicative of an environment where employees' opinions and quality of life aren't valued. (Although if you're asking to talk to previous people who held the job, it's reasonable for them not to offer up anyone who was fired, disgruntled, or generally not very good at the job.)

However, do wait to ask this until an offer has been made. Your request will take up time from people whose schedules aren't slated to include this sort of thing, and so it's reasonable for the company to want to wait on that until they know they're interested in hiring you.

checking references without intent to make an offer

A reader writes:

Do potential employers ever check a/some/all candidates' references with no intent to present an offer to a/some/all of the candidate(s)?

And where is the reference check in relation to the rest of the candidate choosing process?

Only if they're insane. Checking the references of a candidate you have no interest in hiring would be a complete waste of time -- why would you bother? Unless you work at some crappy, inefficient company that insists that you check references across the board, this would make no sense -- and if you do, you should quit because that company is ridiculous.

Personally, I check references only post-interviews, once I know who my top one or two candidates are. It's my final step before making an offer. Candidates should strongly prefer this, too, since it protects your references from fatigue.

stop sending me recommendation letters

Someone has to break it to you, so it's going to be me: Please stop with the letters of recommendation. Don't attach them to your resume and don't offer them up at the interview. I know you feel good about them but, unfortunately, they aren't useful. Over at U.S. News & World Report today, I explain why. Please check it out here.

protecting references from overload

A reader writes:

I am always on a job prowl and, thus, in need of references. I read that it's good to give references the job descriptions and updates so they can be prepared to give a good reference. However, as I am doing a wide sweeping job search, I am reluctant to email them time and time again. Should I email them a general email listing the types of jobs I might be looking for? Or, should I update them more about the actual positions so they won't be surprised over the next two months? I tried maintaining good communication with them by emailing them, asking about updates on what they're doing and offering to help in projects related to ones I have worked on before. Yet, from their responses, I know most of them are really very busy.

Actually, there's a very easy answer to this: Don't provide prospective employers with your references until you're in the final stages of interviewing for a job. Most employers aren't going to check references until they're seriously considering making you an offer anyway (it's time-consuming and there's no point until you're seriously considering hiring someone). In fact, wait until the employer specifically asks you for your references -- at that point and only at that point, provide them and give your references a heads-up, with details about the nature of the job.

And if an employer asks you for your references at the very outset of the process, it's completely fine to request that they not be contacted until the employer is seriously interested in making you an offer (and that you be notified first so that you can alert them).

questions from a recent grad

A reader writes:

I am a recent grad, working as a full-time intern in the field of my undergrad major. I couldn't have asked for a more nurturing and empathetic department; they give me semi-challenging jobs, find time to answer my questions, give me many opportunities to take initiative, and really prioritize me to have a meaningful intern experience. However, this was only supposed to be a summer internship, and my manager has already extended my employment to the maximum six months.

He jokes about a permanent position afterward, but, honestly, the long commute is much too draining and I'm not sure whether this is the field I would like to stay in. I wish I had this internship after graduate school because the internship has a lot of potential to become a full-time job offer, with good perks (and great pay). At my life stage right now, I want to explore other fields, such as art or teaching, both of which require time to develop a portfolio or get some professional training.

With that said, I have a series of questions that I hope you could offer your advice for:

1) Is it alright to let my director know I'm looking for other offers after the internship? I have the impression that job hunting is a hush-hush operation. Also, in that case, what are some steps I can take to leave my foot in the door at this agency to come back in maybe... 4 years or so?

2) Should I be looking for a job while I am still working? I have three months left, and from what I can tell, most job opportunities (a lot of really good job opportunities) would probably like the position to start earlier than three months. Do people ever interview, find out the timing isn't right, and then ask to be considered in a month or two?

3) Is it alright to apply for jobs that I might be under-qualified for? Most often, I don't meet the "years of experience" requirement. Looking at the job tasks, I am really up for the challenge; I could do a good job! Yet, with work, I can't find enough time to write so many cover letters, especially if I'm just under-qualified anyway.

4) Recently, my design work and all my back ups either got lost during moving or during liquid mishaps. Thus, though I am interested in working in design jobs, I have no portfolio. I'm taking a class right now to start getting some work samples, but was wondering whether you had any experience in this field and had any advice (since it takes a very long time to develop a portfolio).

5) Also, the experience I have that I feel demonstrates my skills and passions the most, such as leading groups, marketing events, planning campus art exhibits, and mentoring, all fall under one organization... that is religiously affiliated. Moreover, it is volunteer work. I am comfortable with putting the word "Christian" into my resume, but don't want to be screened for it. What is your advice?

5) I had the privilege of working at two solid institutions during college. Some acquaintances have asked, on a number of occasions, to help give them a reference for a full-time job. I'm not sure how this networking really works. Do I just email my manager and tell them, "Hey, I have a friend who wants to work here. She's a good worker"?

Okay, let's take these one at a time.

1. Because your director knows that the internship has a definite ending date, it's absolutely okay to him know you're job-hunting. It would be odd if you weren't (see #2 below), and he knows that. And as far as keeping the door open to come back at some point, you should let him know that you love the organization, are grateful for the experience they've given you, and would love to come back some day. And when you leave, make sure you keep in touch with him; email him periodically to check in and let him know what you're doing.

2. Yes, you should definitely be looking for a job while you're still working! If you have three months left, this is a good time to start. You should assume that job-hunting will take a while; even once you get an interview, the process can take some time -- I'm talking months at some places, although ideally only weeks -- so three months ahead would be completely normal. The absolute worst that can happen if you start too early is that you get an offer way too early and turn it down; the worst that can happen if you start too late is that you end up unemployed with no income. You're better off risking the former.

3. Regarding being under-qualified and applying anyway: Job advertisement are like wish lists. They will look at people who don't perfectly match all their requirements. Within reason, of course -- if they're asking for 10 years of experience and you have one, that's too much of a jump. But if the postings says four years of experience and you have two, and you think you could do the job, apply anyway.

4. Is there any way to reassemble your portfolio? Can you get in touch with others who might have samples of your work? If not, is it feasible to simply create some samples on your own, just so that you have something to show people?

5. I wouldn't worry too much about having a religiously affiliated organization on your resume. Some people will like it, and most won't care. If you run into the rare person who has an issue with it, you don't want to work for them anyway. (And I say this as a non-religious person.)

6. Last, if a friend asks you to recommend them for a position, first make sure that you really want to recommend them. Remember, when you recommend someone, your own reputation is at stake. So only recommend people if you have a solid opinion of their professional abilities. If you don't, or if you don't know anything about their professional abilities, you can always just pass on their application to your manager with a note saying something like, "I wanted to pass this on to you, but I should note that I don't know her well enough to give you a meaningful recommendation." You don't want to be the person who recommended the guy who embezzled from the company.

I hope this is helpful. Good luck!

dealing with a bad reference

One of the most common questions I receive here is what to do about a previous boss who is likely to give you a bad reference. Over at U.S. News & World Report today, I give some tips on how to control the damage. Check it out, comment, etc.

will attitude affect references?

A reader writes:

Since I graduated University six years ago, I have worked for a large health care organization in several different roles. Shortly after I started the job that I am currently in, I experienced several major upheavals in my life during a very short time frame. I am not using these events as an excuse, but merely to illustrate the progression of events to present day.

As the months have gone by, I have become increasingly depressed and resentful, in part due to these events and in part due to complete job dissatisfaction and unhappiness. The field I am in (administrative assistant) is not one that I ever wanted to be in. Not that there is anything wrong with this type of job, but I have a University degree and it was never my intention to spend my working life making coffee and recording minutes. Recently, the department I am in experienced a massive internal reorganization, and I was re-assigned to a new area in the same department. All of the above combined has resulted in a severe impact on my mood, and it has unfortunately started to come across in my behavior. I do not bring my home life to work, but there are days when it is impossible to just switch off and not think about anything other than my job, and so as a result I am not as "smiley" and happy as I once was. I am good at what I do; I am efficient, highly organized, responsible, and a hard worker. All of these traits and qualities are ones that have been recognized in prior performance reviews or have even been said directly to me; I am not just trying to make myself sound good. However, I smile very infrequently now, since I am not happy. I am polite - it is not in me to be rude, but I am not happy, and it is quite apparent.

My dilemma is this: I am looking for another job, closer to home, in a different field, and one that I am hoping will make me feel more engaged and fulfilled. Shortly after the internal reorganization, my new supervisor came to me and indicated that while I do good work, people have come to him expressing concerns about my attitude. As I indicated earlier, I am polite. I complete my work on time or early, efficiently, and correctly. But it seems that because I am not as willing to join people for lunch anymore, or to smile as much, that this is being held against me. I was told repeatedly during the conversation that I needed to change my attitude. This too I confess I started to resent, because I understood what my supervisor was saying the first time, and did not feel that he needed to reiterate the same point an additional four times.

Putting aside all the other questions I have, my main concern at this point is what kind of a reference I am going to get. In point of fact, I do not want to list anyone I currently work with as a reference, as I am concerned that they will highlight my short-term unhappiness to the detriment of mentioning all the good qualities that I possess. I have had experience working in human resources, and first-hand experience in interviewing people and performing reference checks, and yet I do not know how to handle the situation I am in. I know that not putting my current supervisor on my list of references can raise a red flag. In addition, I do not want my current employer to know that I am looking, since if he is called and I do not get an offer, I then have to continue working for someone who now knows that I am looking for other work. I do have other references from previous jobs, but the most recent of those is getting on for two years old, and most prospective employers want to speak with someone who has had more recent knowledge of my skills and abilities.

I have been doing some research about what employers can and cannot say about past employees, and frankly I am worried that because of the above circumstances, and my work colleague's interpretation of my attitude, that it is going to negatively impact my chances of getting a new job. I know employers cannot say anything that comes across as specifically malicious, but I feel that there is a very fine line between what a prospective employer needs to know and what is just unnecessarily malicious.

Any suggestions that you have would be most appreciated, as I am feeling very conflicted. The job environment I am in right now is not one where I can thrive, and I am more and more worried that my chances of getting a job which allows me to be happier will not be possible, all because of a few months that are now being held against me as my overall "attitude."

Oh, there's so much here. Let's see:

1. I suspect your resentment is showing in more ways than just not smiling and not going to lunch. If you're that unhappy at having to be there, it's showing, believe me.

2. Being resentful penalizes you in several different ways -- not only does it make you unhappy (which is bad enough on its own), but it actually may be standing in the way of your ability to take action to change the very thing you're unhappy with (your career) if you're concerned about its impact on your references. Double penalty, and in both cases, it harms no one but you. Drop the resentment. Focus on the fact that you're now taking action to do something different. Generally speaking, you have more power than you realize over your responses and emotions and can make the mental shift if motivated to it.

Unless you're depressed, which brings us to...

3. Tell your manager that you've had some things going on in your personal life that are taking a toll on you. You don't need to be specific, but I think it will help things to explain that there's a non-work-related reason for your recent attitude. If he's not a jerk, he's likely to soften his assessment once he knows that.

4. You were irritated that your manager repeated the same message to you several times, when you got it the first time. Often when people do this, it's because the employee isn't showing any indication that she's getting the message. You need to respond in a way that acknowledges what's being said and indicates what you plan to do in response. For instance: "I appreciate you telling me this. Some events in my personal life have affected my mood, and I didn't realize it was so apparent. I probably won't be going to lunch with people much because I'm not feeling very social lately, but I'll try to make sure it doesn't impact my other interactions with people."

5. Now, on to your actual questions. It's very normal when job-searching to request that prospective employers not contact your current employer, since most people don't want their employer to know they're looking. Some interviewers will be content with only contacting references from prior jobs. Others may ask to speak to your current employer, but it's completely fine (and normal) to ask them to wait to do that until they're ready to make you an offer.

6. You say, "I feel that there is a very fine line between what a prospective employer needs to know and what is just unnecessarily malicious." It's not malicious for an employer to talk about an employee's attitude and many reference-checkers will ask about that sort of thing. Reference checks are about more than how the person performed the duties of the job; they're also often about people skills, and this is legitimate.

So I think your best bet is to just address it head-on: If you're about to get an offer and they want to talk to your current employer (which they may not even ask to do, if you provide them with lots of other references from before this job), mention that you had some personal upheaval in the last year and you weren't as cheery as you normally are, and you know they noticed -- so that the reference-checker is prepared to hear that and has some context if it comes up.

That's really all you can do -- the facts are what they are, and now it's just a matter of providing context for them. Unless your attitude was far more horrid than your letter makes clear, my hunch is that it probably won't stand in your way. However, you should pledge to yourself that you'll never let your attitude at work get to that point again, because as you're seeing now, it ends up affecting you in the end. Good luck!

fear of abusive former boss giving reference

A reader writes:

Due to a very emotionally abusive work environment, I decided I could no longer wait for another offer (I had been trying for several months with no success), as my physical and mental health were imperiled, and quit my job. But now I face the very, very uncomfortable situation of potential employees wanting to contact my former employer (a perfectly reasonable request, but which is terrifying me at the moment).

I try to head this off at the pass by providing numerous references from distinguished people I have done work for, as well as listing on my resume all the awards I have won for my work and my substantive responsibilities and accomplishments. My work was extremely well thought of by my colleagues and other superiors at this place (a large university), as well as people I did outreach work with in the larger community, and I have references, if I need them, from more than a dozen people (including my former director before the current director I had so much difficulty with).

But the problem is none of these people will be the one a potential employer talks to; it will be with her. If I check "no" in the box where an application asks "may we contact this employer?", it will look like I am hiding something or that I was somehow at fault for a situation gone sour (I did, in fact, make several mistakes in reaction to her behavior which I truly regret, and did my best to honestly confront and atone for, but it was really a no-win situation, no matter what). But if I say "yes" and they phone her, she will undo all the goodwill and good works I achieved in this position, which many, many people will vouch for.

I have since been doing some very interesting and rewarding freelance consulting in the meantime, but my clients aren't really traditional "employers," although I know they would say wonderful things about my work, too. So what can I do here? Can I legitimately put down these clients as "employers"? It just seems dishonest; the fact is I worked almost four years at the university (most of the time under the first director - but he has left), and if they call, it will be she they will talk to, no one else.

This director has continued, months after I have left, to malign me to my former employees and my colleagues in other departments (I remain close with many of them, and HR knows about this, as they have complained to them about her unprofessional and unstable behavior), gave me such an outrageous and slanderous performance evaluation that there was a formal, written protest to HR by my colleagues when word got out (one of my outraged employees overheard the whole evaluation and told people), and now there is a push to get her removed from her position (and not for her behavior towards me, believe me), but all that still doesn't help me. What do I do to address the question, "May we contact this employer?"

Okay, first, yes, you can absolutely list your freelance clients as employers. Just explain that you were freelancing and they hired you to do work for them.

On the bigger question of how to handle the "may we contact this employer?" question, say yes. Then do the following:

1. Contact your old employer's HR department. They presumably know the history. Explain that you are very concerned about what the director may say if called for a reference and that you are concerned about her standing in the way of you obtaining employment. The HR department is going to be familiar with the potential for legal problems here, and will probably speak to your old director.

2. Explain to prospective employers that you (and many others) had a personality conflict with this particular director, but that you can supply tons of other references who can speak glowingly of you, including your former boss for that same position, who was your boss for most of your time there. (And you should definitely track down that old director and use him as a reference; it will help counteract any concerns this raises.)

I actually think you are very well positioned to handle this smoothly. You have tons of other great references, you didn't work under this boss very long, you have an HR department at that employer that can probably handle this for you -- I think this is going to work out just fine for you.

prospective employer called current employer

A reader writes:

I recently interviewed for a position in a company that is opening a new branch in my area in the early fall. I went through the entire interview process, a phone interview and then meetings with 2 HR reps, a branch manager and a VP. Everything went great. I was very clear in the interview process that my current employer was not aware that I was searching for a job and that if I wasn't offered a position with this new company, I was comfortable staying with my current employer because I am well thought of and can have a long term career there if I choose to stay.

In the past week, I have heard from all my references that they have spoken to the HR rep checking references and all went well. I have also heard from my current employer that someone called and said they were planning on offering me a position and needed to verify my current salary. I was speechless.

To make matters worse, this was over a week ago and I have not received a job offer from this company. I know that this perspective employer is interviewing for all positions and has a lot of time on their hands to make offers, but now my current employer is just sitting back and waiting for me to give my notice. I know that my current employer plans to counter but I don't know exactly what they said to the person on the phone. What if it caused this new company to reconsider offering me a position? Is this ethical? I have no problem with them verifying salary and employment history with my current employer but couldn't they say I was trying to buy a car or something? What do you make of this?

What I make of it is that this prospective employer committed a major violation of accepted practices and basic etiquette and common sense.

It is very, very typical for job-seekers to ask that their current employer not to be contacted for a reference, since in most cases the current employer doesn't know the employee is looking. Commonly, once you're a finalist for the position, a prospective employer who is determined to speak with your current manager before extending an offer will tell you that you're a finalist and explicitly seek your permission to do so.

You're luckier than some people, in that it doesn't sound like this is jeopardizing your current job. For many people, it could -- which is why it's not done.

I want to continue attacking them, but in the interest of being constructive: If you want to move this along, you could call the company and explain that you're now in a bit of an awkward position since they gave a heads-up to your current employer, and ask what their timeline is for moving forward.

And if you do end up working there, have a word with their HR folks at some point.

excelling in end stages of hiring process

A reader writes:

I've got a second round (final) interview for a state agency department district director position next Monday. I had been told the top 2 candidates would be moving on to this second round, so I assume that I am a good position here and want to make the best possible impression. I've been actively job searching for about 3 months now, as I was terminated from my last position as an Executive Director at a small non-profit for what they said was "not the right fit" (I had only been there 6 months) and they have since restructured and eliminated this position at this point. It was a tough situation for me, but I learned a great deal from the experience and am ready to move forward professionally.

For the first part of the interview, I have been asked to make a 10 minute Powerpoint presentation on a relevant topic of my choice. Then the panel has a set of questions for me. I have never had to do a presentation as part of the interview process before. Do you have any advice on this? There is a topic that is a natural fit for me based on my past experience and expertise that I believe would be interesting to all of the panel (I asked who the audience was when I was offered the interview), but maybe they would be expecting that...should I choose a topic that might be a little more work for me to prepare, but would demonstrate a larger breadth of knowledge?

I have also been asked to bring along a list of references of people who have supervised me. I've got just a couple, as I have been working since grad school but have had only 3 employers in 11 years -- the first two were about 5 years each, and then this last one was the short one. During the last month I have also been working temporarily as a PT project manager at a local business school and will ask my supervisor there to be a reference as well. Would it be better if I asked for a written letter of reference from the chair of the non-profit board that I reported to at my last job, to try to mitigate the circumstances of my leaving their organization? I feel it would be a red flag not to include a reference for that most recent position, and back when this was all going on he said that he would be able to give me a positive reference...but I am just not 100% confident about this. What would you suggest?

On the Powerpoint presentation, I think I'd go with the topic that you're the most comfortable with and feel most at ease answering questions about. You can even explain that you considered the other topic but decided to go with this one as it'll provide a better example of your work. I think they'll actually prefer that, and here's why: A colleague of mine who I often do interviews with will frequently pick out something from a candidate's resume that doesn't have much (or anything) to do with the job we're interviewing for and ask a ton of questions about it. The reason he does this is that when you get a candidate talking about something they're really comfortable with, you can see a lot about how their brain works, and that's really valuable -- even if the topic itself isn't directly correlated to the job they're interviewing for. Which is a long way of saying to pick the topic you know best; you'll do a better job.

On the reference issue, I'm not a huge fan of letters of reference. Any good employer is going to want to call that reference and ask probing questions, so the value of a letter is pretty limited. What I'd recommend instead is that you call the reference yourself, explain that you're in the final stages for a job you really want, and ask what sort of reference they're likely to give you so that you can make an informed decision about whether to offer them up or not. If you choose to leave that reference off, when you offer the list of references, you could explain it by saying, "I picked the people who worked with me the longest and know me the best, but let me know if you'd like contact info for anyone else." (Keep in mind, of course, that they can call any former employer, whether they're on your reference list or not, but this approach gives you some measure of control over it.)

Good luck! Let us know how it goes.

references and the importance of giving notice

It makes me very happy when other people do my work for me, as a reader named Ayan just did, with the comment she left on an earlier post I did on references. She writes:

We recently interviewed a woman who wanted to leave the university system and work in the private sector (for us). Since she was teaching in another state, we asked when she planned to move; she said she was contracted to teach through the current semester and would move to our state at the end of the month. 



She did great in the interview so we began the reference-checking process. Interestingly, she had *not* given a reference for the job previous to her current one. But since that institution was listed on the job application, we called and spoke to that former department chair. He gave a good reference - until we asked how she had left the job. It turns out her version of "two weeks notice" was to call and leave a message on the department head's machine over the Christmas break. This was technically two weeks, but since it was the vacation period between semesters, no one got the message; they had to scramble to find a substitute teacher when class started.



Following a hunch, we looked up the online class schedule at her present university - and sure enough, she was enrolled to teach a class for the upcoming semester. If we'd hired her, she would again be walking out on a fully scheduled course one week before it was due to start. 


That seemed to indicate both a certain "rules lawyering" mentality and a willingness to drop a job without regard to their need for her. We didn't hire her. She was FURIOUS that we'd called the supervisor who was not provided as a "reference," but the form she signed clearly stated that we could and would contact *any* organization she listed in her job history. 



So the lessons to take away here are: 1. Carefully read the forms a potential employer has you sign; chances are you're giving them the right to contact anyone on your history, not just your stated references. 2. Give an ethical period of notice, if at all possible. 3. If you've screwed over a boss in the past, you're likely to be viewed as a risky hire - unless you own up to your past behavior and present a compelling justification for it.

I have not a thing to add.

Okay, yes I do. I like other people doing my work for me, but I still need to put in my two cents, whether it's needed or not. (Side story: My father was a newspaper editor and one his reporters once referred to him as "a dog who has to pee on every tree." That's me too. It's genetic.)

So here's my addition to Ayan's three brilliant points: Even if you don't sign a form consenting to have any of your former employers contacted, reference-checkers may still call any of the companies listed on your resume. In fact, a smart reference-checker will often specifically hunt down additional references beyond the ones you provide -- because the list you hand over is of course the people likely to present you in the best light. Really, the only thing off-limits in reference-checking is your current employer, so assume everything else is all fair game.

Thank you, Ayan!

didn't give full two weeks notice

A reader writes:

I quit my first job out of college after staying at a company for a year because I found a new opportunity. However, I did not give a full two weeks notice. I told my manager the day he came back from a vacation and by that time, I had to start my new job in a week and a half. He was very upset and asked if I could stay a week longer but I wasn't able to and I didn't want to start my new job on a negative note. It still haunts me to this day. I have learned my lesson and this time around, I gave a two month notice to my employer that I am quitting to go back to school.

When looking for a job in the future, how negatively will this affect me? And what could I do to not jeopardize future opportunities? Should I bring this up before a background check is conducted? I am sure that my future employers will find out about what happened at my first job when doing background checks because I am ineligible for rehire.

Oh jeez. Penalizing you for giving two or three days less notice than they would have preferred is silly, especially since it would have been a full two weeks if your boss hadn't been on vacation. Believe me, I am huge on giving lots of notice -- like months and months -- but two or three days really doesn't amount to much in the larger scheme of things.

You can explain this to future employers if it comes up, by explaining it exactly the way you did here. Any reasonable employer isn't going to hold it against you.

Should you bring it up ahead of time? If you're sure the reference isn't going to be a good one because of it, then yes. You could say something like, "By the way, I had glowing reviews from my boss at that job, but I was only able to give a week and a half notice rather than a full two weeks when I left, since he had been on vacation earlier. He wasn't happy about it, and I do worry that it could color that reference. I've always given lots of notice ever since." And if you can offer another reference from that company who can speak to your work there, that would be good too, although not strictly necessary. (In fact, sometimes merely offering it in this sort of situation is reassurance enough, even if they don't call the alternate.)

But I do wonder if the reference is going to be as bad as you think. It wouldn't be a bad idea to call them and ask, so that you know for sure.

By the way, if you need to give notice and your boss is on vacation, give your notice to someone else -- HR or, if you don't have an HR department, your boss' boss. Less than ideal, yes, but then you can't be blamed for not giving appropriate notice. People will understand why you wanted to alert them right away and not wait. And most of them will appreciate it.

the scoop on references

I've been getting a lot of questions about references lately and I'm getting tired of typing the same answers to them, so I am hereby presenting answers to all of them at once.

Is it legal for a former employer to give me a bad reference? 

It's legal for an employer to give a negative reference as long as it's factually accurate and can be backed up by evidence.

Well, then how come some companies will only give out dates of employment and not comment on the employee's performance?
Some companies don't want to deal with the headache of a lawsuit, even if they're likely to win; their lawyers advise them to just play it safe. And they are the bane of reference-checkers everywhere as a result.

I worked for one of those companies that has a policy not to give references, but the new job I'm interviewing with is insisting on getting a reference from them. How can I make this happen?
You can often get around this by using your direct supervisor as a reference, not simply "HR." It's usually HR types who adhere to the letter of these policies; individual supervisors are usually willing to give more detailed references, particularly if you explain that your job offer hinges on it. (Contact this supervisor directly and make sure he or she is able to give you a good reference first though.) You can also offer up former coworkers, clients, and others who can speak to your work, or -- if nothing else works -- explain the company's policy and offer old copies of performance reviews if you have them (they're good to keep for this reason).


My old boss is giving me a bad reference. I don't dispute her account, but since it's making it hard for me to find another job, is there anything I can do about it?
Call your old boss and ask if she'd be willing to reach an agreement with you on what she'll say to future reference calls. It's at least worth a shot -- the worst that can happen is that she'll say no. When you call, say something like this: "I'm concerned that the reference you're providing for me is preventing me from getting work. Could we work something out so that this isn't standing in my way?" Employers who either (a) take pity on you or (b) are terrified of lawsuits may be willing to work something out with you. Also, it won't hurt to soften her up a little first by telling her that you've learned from the situation, appreciate the chance she gave you, etc.

My old boss is giving me a bad reference and what she's saying is wrong. What can I do about it?

Contact the HR department of your old company and explain that your boss is giving an inaccurate reference for you and that you are concerned about slander and defamation. The HR department, which is trained in this stuff and knows the legal jeopardy they are in, is going to freak out on your old boss and put a stop to this. If it's a small company and there's no HR department, you may need to contact the old boss directly and politely explain that she's exposing her company to legal risk by defaming you and jeopardizing your ability to gain employment. If all else fails, you may need to simply warn prospective new employers that the reference won't be a good one -- but if it comes to this, try your hardest to find other people who can speak well of your performance there -- again, clients, coworkers, old performance reviews, etc.

How can I find out what kind of reference my old company is giving for me?
You have two choices: You can call your old company and ask. Or if you don't trust them to be candid with you, you can have someone else call them and do a reference check on you. There are companies you can hire for that purpose, but there's nothing that says you can't have a friend do it for you for free.

I gave a prospective employer a list of three references to contact, but they contacted a different employer from my past who wasn't on the list I gave them. Can they do that?
Yes. The new employer can call anyone you've worked for or who might know you and ask about your performance. They aren't limited to the list you provide them with.

I want to use my old boss as a reference, but she doesn't work at that company anymore.
That's no problem; simply give her current contact information and explain she has moved to a new company. (This is why you must stay in touch with people from your past; otherwise you won't know their new contact info.)

Someone asked me to be a reference for them but I don't want to do it. How can I get out of it?
See here and here.

how long does negative personnel info stay in your records?

A reader writes:

Is it true that negative information is suppose to be off an employment record after 5 years and if so how do you go about getting it removed?

Nope, not true. Companies can keep employee files for as long as they want. (In fact, government regulations require that employers keep them for at least a minimum amount of time, but there's no particular amount of time after which they must be destroyed.) I suppose some state out there might have some odd law on this, but I would doubt it. After all, companies are entitled to keep records of that sort for their own reference, so when the guy who was fired for punching his manager five years ago applies for a job again, the new hiring manager knows about it.

However, I assume your real question is about what you can do to prevent a former employer from sharing negative information about you with a prospective employer who calls for a reference. There's no guarantee, but it's usually worth a call to your old employer to ask if they'd be willing to reach an agreement with you on what they'll say to future reference calls. It's at least worth a shot -- the worst that can happen is that they'll say no. When you call, say something like this: "I'm concerned that the reference you're providing for me is preventing me from getting work. Could we work something out so that this isn't standing in my way?" Employers who either (a) take pity on you or (b) are terrified of lawsuits may be willing to work something out with you.

Just to be clear, it's not illegal for an employer to give a negative reference as long as it's factual and can be backed up by evidence. But some employers will cave anyway, since they don't want to deal with the headache of a lawsuit, even if they're likely to win. Those employers, of course, make it hard for other managers, since it makes it tougher to get honest references and thus to make good hiring decisions. So I hate that. But as a job-seeker, it could help you.

how can I get out of being a reference?

A reader writes:

I know you tackled the reference for someone when you can't give a good reference, but I really felt that this might be something you've come across and you could provide a bit of insight.

I am a teacher for a local college. I teach part time to professionals upgrading their skills. I've had a student in a series of my classes approach me by email demanding (yes, I say demanding because it wasn't really a request) a reference from me regarding the course. Her wording is as follows: "Would you mind writing a reference letter for me that I can use for any positions I apply for? Please and thank you..." So I feel that this is not really a request at all.

Now, I don't have a problem with her attendance or her work, but I do have a problem being a reference for someone that 1. I don't like, 2. that has never worked with or for me, 3. that I don't trust, 4. that I believe to be a true shit-disturber in every sense of the word. While her class work was excellent, she failed to bond with people in the class and I was constantly receiving complaints about her attitude - she would lie to your face and back stab as soon as you walk away... So for me, this is a really hard thing to do.

I have given references to other students who have excelled in my classes so I can't even say it isn't a practice for me - which I wanted to say, but this woman overheard a conversation between myself and a past student who thanked me for the reference so I'm a little stuck.

Her work in the class was good. She was never late for class and always had her homework done...my problems with her go beyond the superficial...I would never refer her for any position because I wouldn't want what she stands for to come back to me.

I am trying to find a diplomatic way to say that I don't want to give her a reference - or I can provide a very barebones reference about her attendance and work in class...I just can't end the reference the way most letters are ended - with those words "I would refer..." or "I would hire..." because truly, I wouldn't.

You definitely shouldn't write a reference for someone you don't honestly feel you can recommend, and an inability to work well with others is a perfectly legitimate reason not to recommend someone. You have two choices in how you handle it:

1. You can tell a white lie: "I'm sorry but I'm overcommitted right now and can't add anything to my plate." or "I don't feel I have enough of a sense of you and your work to write a compelling letter, so I don't feel I'd be the best choice for this."

2. You can tell the truth: "Jill, to be honest with you, I wouldn't feel comfortable writing a letter of recommendation because I heard so many complaints from other class members who found you difficult to work with. I wish you the best of luck, but I can't in good faith write such a letter."

Number one is the safer and easier option, of course, and you should keep in mind that if you choose number two, you might have to deal with her complaining to the school administration. But I wish more people would choose number two, because, you know, honesty and all that. That said, I've chosen the easy way more than once in this situation.